Cinevate's B4 mount 2/3" relay lens...what?

[Dennis Wood]

Finally, something to show you Rather than try to explain a ton in repeated posts...we shot a video! For those of you who will invariably comment on the rig's size, we held up the "stock" fujinon lens a few minutes in so you could compare. The only question you might have right now is will it work with Brand X adapter? The answer is about 95% likely a yes, assuming you're using our flip module. The relay lens uses several types of low dispersion glass, exotic coatings and yes, has 100% internal focusing, zooming, and back focus operations. This means it does not breath physically an iota, regardless of whether you're in SLR (or Vistavision) mode or cine mode. The video should answer any questions and explains also illustrates the nearly 50% loss of FOV that happens with any other relay system when using SLR or Vistavision format lenses.

If you're a Brevis REV2, MP.1 or MP.2 user, and you're using our flip module already, then nothing is required other than the B4 relay lens. If you're using our Proteus rails, good news there too. All you'd likely need (if you don't have them already) is our 60cm rods and "shorty" links kit as the system was designed with the relay and ENG cameras in mind. What we really like with this rig is that when used with our Proteus grips, the rig is nearly perfectly balanced when used in shoulder mode..and the viewfinder is in eyeball range too.

We're pretty sure no one will complain with regard to the price which is still pegged at $2500 to $2700 US This is the only multi-format relay in the world, at any price.

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[Jon Wolding]

Wow. Awesome.

That rig is looooong, so one question:
Are you making a support that could possibly fit onto the flip module?

[Dennis Wood]

It seems long..but not when you compare it (as we did) to the "standard" Fujinon lens in the clip. The B4 relay is built like a tank, so surprisingly little support is required. That said, there would be no issue at all with a flip mouted rails support so third party adapters would work with the relay lens and flip.

[DocuMovie]

Hiya Dennis,

will the new relay work with other adaptors?
we have 2 brevis units and love them but i have bought a
sgblade as a spinning glass option. Don't worry were not getting rid of the brevis's!!!

p.s any news on the mp.2 motors?

looks amazing by the way!!

keep it up captain

cheers
Suresh

p.s any news on the mp.2 motors?

http://www.vimeo.com/documovie/videos

[Dennis Wood]

The updated motors are in, shipping in every MP.1 since last week...and available for anyone looking to update them. It's a user install item, done in about 5 minutes.

You won't need a spinning adapter once you've seen what we've got cooking in the drop-in CINEFUSE department. We never rest here Our MP.2 launch was delayed about 2 weeks as we sorted out a microprocessor code issue with the new "smart" power system. Stay tuned for that announcement.

[smelnick]

Is this compatible (and tested) with the M2 adapter. If so i am ordering one - will be perfect on my hpx500

[Dennis Wood]

I know our flip works with their adapter, so with some spacing, I'm pretty sure you'd be OK. The relay optics were computer modelled with our system out front...however, we designed in a few items knowing that we'd end up on just about every adapter out there

[Shawn Caple]

Dennis,

I'm not too familiar with 2/3 relays and and ENG cameras but the video brings up a question.

If the rotating parts allow you to set the camera at a certain zoom, focus, openness (however you describe that), isn't it possible to combine this tool with the brevis, creating a 35mm adapter that can set focus and zoom without the camera doing the work and resulting in a sharper and more detailed picture because less optics (used in zoom) are used to capture the picture to the camera's image sensor?

though, I may be in left field here...

[cd_albert]

The big question or request I have for all adapter makers is:

How about building a compact one unit design for B4 cameras? You guys are wizzes in the engineering dept, surely you can match the Pro35 now? EDIT: To make it compact a PL version and a 35mm Still version would seem to make sense? I don't want to loose the 35mm Still FOV!

Dennis, it would seem a little too big to use in any situation except for film making in a very controlled environment. I think you may be hard pressed to go hand-held with it.

Keep up the awesome work, you guys must spend your lives in the workshop!


Chris Albert
Cameraman
CBS News/60 Minutes

[martinkunert]

Dennis,

I congratulate you on closing in on finishing this relay lens.

But I have say respectfully that i don't get it. The fujinon lens you show as a length comparison has its matte box attached. As you know, when you install the brevis, you remove the matte box. Without that big hunk of plastic in front, the fujionon appears to be maybe an inch or so longer than your relay. If that's the case, why not just clamp the brevis onto the fujinon and save yourself a bundle of money. Plus I'm sure the optics inside the fujion is of a much higher quality (it is an $8,000 lens). The length of a 35mm lens, brevis, flip, relay (being the fujinon or now, your relay) makes the HPX500 impractical for most shooting... at least from my experience. That's why I've been waiting eagerly for cinevate to release its relay. However, with the length of your's, none of the impracticality issues have been resolved and I don't see a reason to buy the relay and get back into the 35mm adapter world.

So my big question is.... P&S tech managed to build a relay that combines both the "relay" and the "brevis" in a very short length piece of gear. Why did you choose to build a much longer system (4 times longer?).

Thanks.

[jade gillies]

If that's the case, why not just clamp the brevis onto the fujinon and save yourself a bundle of money.

Im not sure if you have attached a brevis to your 500 with a stock lens, but i have, in fact i dped a whole short film with a brevis plus filp attached to a 17x7.6 Fuji, it was a challenge, They simply are not built for the task, correct me if im wrong but,

A) You drop the acromat with a relay so its one whole step of glass you get to loose, you have to run the acromat on the fuji because it simply can't focus that close

B) The fuji, at least an 8k one, stops down as you zoom, not constant apeture, so that 1.6 at full wide may be 3.5 by the time the lens has zoomed to the GG

C) The standard falloff on a Fuji of that price range is empisized when focusing on GG so you almost get a vinette you didn't ask for

D) The focus is ball/dounut shaped you have to run a very high F stop to get edge to edge sharpeness ie F8

so from a personal experenice shooting real world with a brevis it is SOO important we get relays and i can't wait

[martinkunert]

If that's the case, why not just clamp the brevis onto the fujinon and save yourself a bundle of money.

Im not sure if you have attached a brevis to your 500 with a stock lens, but i have

I have attached the Brevis, with or without the flip, to the 17x fujinon many times as I've owned all three. (see: http://www.martinkunert.com/renthpx500.html) I found the brevis unusable with the fujinon (hence sold the brevis) because:

1) tiny vibrations on the camera get magnified by the time they hit the end of the 35mm lens. The contraption is THAT long.

2) it is impossible to do worth while handheld. The lens assembling is, again, too long.

3) even for wide angle shots, the set up is ungainly for quick use. Bottom line, I'll live with the 16mm like depth of field if I can get a couple more set-ups in a day.

And a couple of other things. As for focusing, I never had problems getting the fujinon to record a clean image off the Brevis without having to go to f8. That part worked great. Cinevate makes amazing, innovative equipment, especially if you consider the price range, but this relay is just too long... imho.

[Dennis Wood]

Martin, the length difference is actually less than it appears, even with the stock box removed. The extra length is there simply because to do the job properly, and offer both Cine frames and SLR frames with zero crop factor..that's what the physics dictate. P&S uses a re-branded optic that is not purpose designed for it's job, and crops even cine format lenses FOV to reduce vignetting. To contrast, our optic offers full SLR and S35 frame with zero crop factor and full field of view. For twice the price of our lens, you can get a shorter optic from our competition, which will restrict you to PL or OCT mount cine lenses, losing nearly 50% of the frame width with SLR lenses. What we didn't show you is how balanced the rig is on shoulder...with our grips on the identical rig in the vid, it's nearly perfect.

The Fujinon less breathes fantastically during focus racks, and is, as you observed is pretty useless in terms of macro use. It also has a pronounced focus field curvature at close distances making sharp edge to edge footage for most a challenge. So what's different? Cinevate's multi-format relay started out with a computer model of our optics out front, and the typical trichroic array behind it. We have therefore complete control over edge to edge sharpness, light loss, internal focusing, MTF and resolution specs. So is it better than the $8K Fuji lens? For this job, absolutely. With Scarlet 2/3" brain, Ikonoscopes 2/3" HD cam, Phantom, etc.etc. there are many more platform targets with this relay other than the HPX500. It's unfortunate that it took us this long to get here as a I recall very well Martin how upset you were with the project delays. All I can offer is my humble apology and promise that the wait (for some) is definitely worth it

[Jeff Regan]

Dennis,

You have built an amazingly flexible, useful piece at an incredible price. I will assume the optical quality is excellent. To be fair, however, the competition, if you are referring to Letus, offers a B4 Compact prime relay lens that is only 2.25" long, F1.8 and costs $800 more than your relay--$3.5K. It is limited to Academy framing, of course. Letus also has the B4 Pro, which is 4.9" long, F1.5 and $6K, as well as a 1/2" relay, which is 3" long, F1.5, $4.5K. All are primes, all Academy framing only.

I have not seen the physical specs for your variable relay, I would be interested in finding out its length. I think it is great that there will be three B4 relay options for 2/3" cameras, instead of just the Pro35 option. Thank you for offering a great product at a great price, us 2/3" camera owners appreciate your efforts.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com

[cd_albert]

Dennis,

What's the chance of a more compact Relay that is JUST for 35mm SLR lenses? And one just for PL of people want them?

I agree totally that the loss of FOV is a disaster. I want that wide 15mm Canon FD I have to really shine. There must be so many users that will never see the end of a PL lens?

Chris Albert
Cameraman
CBS News/60 Minutes

[jade gillies]

i'll agree with the vibrations while on sticks, but handhead is sure is hell NOT impossable, most of the short was handheld and with good homemade grip parts it produced stunning shots, all the way up to 105mm

[Dennis Wood]

Thanks Jeff. The MTF and resolution charts for our relay are very similar to what you'd see on our Zeiss primes...so in other words, excellent The majority of 35mm adpater users have invested in SLR format glass, and this is why our relay offers both formats, including the ability to zoom in further if required for slower glass! Based on what we've seen from some of the higher end SLR lenses, like our Zeiss collection, there is no shame in using them for serious cinematic work.

Based on what I know so far, it would be a closer comparision to look at our unit in terms of the Letus "B4 Pro" unit in terms of the specification and size. Doing the relay job with a shorter adapter was simply impossible while keeping to our spec for edge to edge and falloff sharpness. We will happily sell our lens for $6000 but in my mind, this would be simply ridiculous pricing. As for the claim of f1.5, someone needs to take some careful measurements of front/rear optics on the "other" relay. Our unit was engineered to exceed our edge to edge sharpness requirements at ~f2. In other words, it will not need to be stopped down to f4 to get good sharpness. The total system loss to the camera, including the Brevis MP.2 flip and a 50mm f1.4 lens will be right in that area, f2.5. In other words, a B4 camera using an f2.5 bare stock lens will see about the same light loss as attaching our entire system with a 50mm f1.4 out front. We figure that's pretty good

[Jon Wolding]

That IS pretty good.

From what I've heard, the Pro35 is an absolute light hog.

[Jeff Regan]

Based on what I know so far, it would be a closer comparision to look at our unit in terms of the Letus "B4 Pro" unit in terms of the specification and size. Doing the relay job with a shorter adapter was simply impossible while keeping to our spec for edge to edge and falloff sharpness.

Dennis,

Yes, but being a zoom, your relay would be expected to be longer than a 9-element prime, would it not?
Have you tested the Letus B4 Compact Relay? I will be receiving my B4 Compact Relay this month and will test for edge to edge and contrast at F1.8 vs. F2.8 or F4.0. I look forward to hearing how the Cinevate B4 Relay mates with a Letus Ultimate physically and image quality wise. The B4 Compact relay appeals to me because with the adapter and 50mm Nikon lens, it will only be 1" longer than my Fujinon HA18X7.6 HD ENG zoom lens--but the quality needs to be very good. I'd love to test your relay as well!

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com

[Amos Kim]

Hi dennis, any chance your relay would work with jvc 1/3" mount cameras? maybe with a 1/3-2/3 converter? And how long is the relay lens exactly? And does it have a setting to do the FOV of 16:9 35mm cinema lens frame? does it need a achro and/or flip to function correctly? thanks