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Flip Vs. Non Flip

Using the Cinevate Flip Module

Flip Vs. Non Flip

New postby Harry Tang on Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:56 am

Hi All,

I have recently bought a Panasonic AG-HMC150 which it got the Flip LCD function that allow me to flip the image of the non-flip DOF adaptor. I am wondering if I should get the Brevis35 non flip version to enjoy the price differences or I should get the Brevis35 Flip version which might have some advantage over the non-flip version that I may not be aware of.

I also wonder if I need to buy any extra adaptor ring for the Brevis35 non flip version to work properly on the HMC-150.

I am very new to the world of videography, so any suggestion or comment are welcome.

thanks in Advance.
Harry Tang
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:57 pm


Re: Flip Vs. Non Flip

New postby Michael Hawk on Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:51 pm

Harry,

I'm in the same boat as you, HMC150, and I'm no expert.

Because with DOF we're adding another lens, the image is going to be flipped upside down. For many cameras, this makes shooting difficult because the image on the LCD monitor is upside down, making framing, pans, etc. difficult. The HMC150, bless it, has an option to flip the LCD. This function can be linked to an easily accessible button. Now we can frame and pan naturally. Granting all that, it would seem the Brevis no-flip is the way to go.

However, the footage is still upside down! We need to know how to flip the video footage. Does this take special software? Does it take a lot of time and/or computer resources? Can this be part of a usual transcoding workflow?

If it is a pain to flip, then a flip Brevis would be the way to go. AVCHD footage doesn't need a lot of additional challenges.

But if it is not a pain, then the no-flip is the ticket.

Let's search the Internet.

1. http://waynekinney.iforumer.com/viewtop ... aynekinney

User stev warns:

my problem is... if i render a flip-corrected footage and import it into premiere...and then make a slowmotion and render it...
it is not as smooth as
if i use the captured footage ("unflipped"), rotate it, make a slowmotion and render it

in other words....the flip and rendering process destroys something.


Uh oh. But what software is he using to flip? We don't know. We also don't know how bad the flipped footage is. As for slow motion, we don't know whether he's merely slowing the footage down, or doing effects processing in Adobe Premiere. If it's the latter, the problem may not occur in other software. If it's the former, you and I may have a problem, too.

2. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=171681

User trez said:

Raylight MXFX can flip the image.
Check this info on how to do it: http://dvfilm.com/MXFX/help.htm
720p DVCProHD footage can be flipped without any quality loss (no decoding/encoding required). 1080p needs recompression, so the quality will suffer.


As HMC150 owners, we'd have to transcode from AVCHD to DVCProHD, then do the flip. And, apparently, we'd lose quality on 1080p (24p, 30p), which are my favorite options.

trez continues:

Another option is Calibrated{Q} MXF Import for OSX:
http://www.calibratedsoftware.com/MXFImport_Mac.asp


AVCHD is not supported, but DVCPROHD is. It's about $100.

As for workflow, trez continues:

The simplest option is to get used to working with flipped footage in FCP. If you make the flop one of your favorite filters, you can easily flip multiple clips - just select them on the timeline and choose your favorite filter. Great thing about favorites is that they remember the exact settings of the filter, so you don't have to change the flipping axis to 'both' for each clip (the flop filter defaults to 'horizontal' afair). The only drawback of this method is that the footage is displayed unflipped when triming the transition or cut.
The workaround is to apply the flip to the clips in your browser window, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do it for multiple clips in one pass. If you assign the keyboard shortcut to your favorite filter, it can be done one by one quite quickly, though.


3. http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/122/858352

User Noah Kadner replies:

If you're going to transcode- transcode to ProRes- much higher image quality than DVCPROHD.


Does flipping software support ProRes? I assume these flipping functions are either built into the editing suites or plugins that function from them. If an editing suite can read ProRes, it should be able to flip it. (?)

4. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=60065

If you're using Eidus editing suite, you click on the little mirror icon to flip the image. Sounds easy!

5. http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=90224

Flipping the image in Sony Vegas. It involves numbers and minus signs. A little more complicated the first time around.

6. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-happen ... -flip.html

More Sony Vegas. Adam posted a free image flip plugin. But Is something lost?

User Chris Barcellos said:

I tried Adam Wilts Flip and compared it to shooting same scene with my FX1 upside down. Seems to loose something and appear grainier in the flip. Does that reflect what you seen ?


----------------------------------------
My conclusion is that either flipping footage is so easy and of such high quality that nobody bothers to post their workflow except nitpicks, or flipping footage is such a pain and results in such low quality that nobody bothers to use a non-flip 35mm adapter. I only wish I knew which was the case!

A good HMC150 link with transcoding info:
HMC150 workflow at DVuser: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/f-148.html

Michael
Michael Hawk
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:59 pm


Re: Flip Vs. Non Flip

New postby Chris Hilleke on Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:17 pm

I recently purchased the HMC 150 (LOVE IT!) and just 2 hours ago hit the checkout button to get the Brevis NON FLIPPED system.

As I assessed this decision here were the pros and cons:

PROS FOR NON FLIPPED WITH HMC:
1. The HMC LCD flips the image during monitoring (without this would not consider NONFLIPPED at all)
2. More AFFORDABLE means 35mm DOF sooner than later
3. LIGHTER WEIGHT Camera system
4. SMALLER Camera System
5. SYMMETRICAL so slightly easier to achieve dynamic BALANCE for glidecams or jibs (maybe? just a hunch)
6. UPGRADABLE to non-flipped
7. It just LOOKS slicker

CONS for NON FLIPPED WITH HMC:
1. Cannot monitor rightside up in EVF (eyecup)
2. Must physically flip all secondary monitoring (client, focus puller, dolly grip, QC etc)
3. Must flip footage in Post
4. On Screen Display is upside down while shooting (but you can refer to the EVF instead for this)
5. Can only use it (without a major headache) with cameras that offer the internal flip

SOME NOTES on the above lists:

Overall I think it is super that Cinevate has designed a system that is convertible between the two (flipped and non flipped) there are times when SIZE and WEIGHT can make the difference so even if you had a flipped system you may prefer the non-flipped.

I intend on eventually getting the flip module because it is a real headache to have upside down footage throughout the creative process. The #2 CON is a HUGE CON not to be underestimated.

NOW ON POST: In my experience, as an FCP user who had no issue with the AVCHD Codec out of the box, the FLIP in post is hassle free other than the keystrokes it takes to do a BASIC MOTION 180 degree rotation and the need to render for full quality assessment but you can still watch your edit in real time. So CON #3 is not to be overestimated.

I'll let you know if I eat my words on any of this because my Brevis is still sitting in Canada as I write this.

-Hope that helps!
Chris Hilleke
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:35 pm


Re: Flip Vs. Non Flip

New postby mjcrawford on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:32 am

Hey, I have an HMC 150 but one thing bugs me, I cannot seem to find anywhere HOW you flip the LCD image... can anyone please explain exactly how you do this? thanks!
mjcrawford
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:30 am



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